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    Psioncy

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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:51 pm

    Southern star rotation is a huge problem for the model, and they haven't come up with anything for it. I know cuz I've researched all their attempts at explaining it and they all suck. They'll frequently say stupid stuff like "Have you seen southern star rotation with your own eyes? No. Then shut up about it."

    Which is incredibly dumb because lots of people live in the southern hemisphere and can and do observe it. I'm all for first hand observational science, but please don't ask me to believe that everyone in Australia is in on some conspiracy and lying about their night sky.

    The level of conspiracy is a big problem with the model. It's a huge leap of reasoning.
    I'm a fair guy. When I look at a theory, I don't just study it. I "put on the hat" and go with it for a while. And I have to say that FE is pretty fun and makes a hella lot more sense than the boing.

    The Moon is another big issue... and the planets. Particularly Jupiter. Gallileo's revelation came when he turned his telescope on Jupiter and saw the Jovian moons orbiting it. There's no claiming fake NASA images on this one. You can see it for yourself with an amateur telescope. These bodies are undeniably 1. in orbit 2. rotating and 3. round. That's what initially changed the paradigm and it's still there to observe today.









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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  The Great Splendini on Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:53 pm

    sorry, i never claimed to know everything about everything.

    but most cultures believed in flat earth until NASA came along with (fake?) imagery and then the globe was placed in all the schools for further brainwashing.

    and the globe model falls apart on so many different levels.

    maybe the earth is shaped like an elephant's ass.

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    Psioncy

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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:00 am

    The paradigm shifted long before NASA ever existed. All it took were telescopes.

    Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Tycho.

    The globe model does work... on so many levels, from explaining night and day, seasons, years, tides, the rotation of the stars. The problem is that the FE model works on many levels also and the two cannot both be right.

    Gravity is something that is not understood, but the FE has endless acceleration, which isn't much of a solution either.

    Telsa thought that what was going on was that the aether particles moving through large masses get partially absorbed them, and tests of this show it to be the case. Those particles are passing out of the Sun and right through the earth, but some get absorbed by the planet. This creates an aether imbalance in all directions on the surface of the world and so any two bodies are attracted to each other.

    That's not proven either, but no gravitational theory is. We just don't know.



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    The Great Splendini

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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  The Great Splendini on Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:10 am

    >> The globe model does work... on so many levels, from explaining night and day, seasons

    Just because night and day can be explained, it doesn't mean shit.

    Because the transit of the Sun could be completely fabricated just to compensate for the bullshit paradigm. So it would work, but it's all made up.

    Globe model is a COMPLETE IDIOTIC JOKE.

    There is no way the entire oceans are contained by a gravitational pull.

    Oceans are massive gigantic monstrosities. They can only exist on a flat plane.

    The earth is flat-ish with maybe some funky shit going on beneath the earth and maybe some funky shit (besides a 'DOME') going on above.

    A globe is a complete joke. It's absolutely preposterous and silly and stupid.

    And it shows what we can all be brainwashed into believing the absolute most stupid bullshit nonsense they throw at us.

    Because we're all basically stupid.
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    Psioncy

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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:16 am

    You need universal acceleration in FE model to make the oceans stick.

    Gravitation works radially from the center of mass, that's why the oceans stick to a round Earth.  Believe that or not, but it's at least an explanation.

    This is why the sun moves in circles and the center of the solar system is really nothing. It's the center of mass, and since there's more mass than just the sun, the sun is not actually the center.

    You can see craters on the moon, so it's not too much of a stretch to say that rocks are probably stuck to that surface?  That clearly round surface.  And, again, Jupiter spins and it's round moons orbit it and rotate themselves. If I could bring NASA images into it.... but I won't open that again with you.  The NASA conspiracy is central to FE, I get it.

    For my part, I watch the astronauts on the ISS flitting around in zero G for continuous 30 minute plus videos.  Their iPads floating around, all of it.  That's way too long for a zero G airplane dive.  I know, I know... CGI.   I mean, it becomes inarguable at that point.  But Jupiter you can indeed see for yourself with an analog scope, and its moons.  And Mars, which rotates and shows surface detail.


    Last edited by Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  The Great Splendini on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:18 am

    >> You need universal acceleration in FE model to make the oceans stick.

    No.

    The earth is flat, stationary, and fixed.

    You don't need anything.

    Rivers flow downhill. That's about it.


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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  The Great Splendini on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:20 am

    >> Gravitation works radially from the center of mass, that's why the oceans stick to a round Earth. Believe that or not, but it's at least an explanation.

    Gravity doesn't exist.

    They had to make it up to support the spinning globe.

    Only relative density exists.

    A helium balloon rises because it's lighter than air.

    A rubber ducky will not rise, but will not sink in the ocean because it's denser than air but not dense enough to sink in the ocean.

    A rock will sink in the ocean.

    There is no gravity.

    It's a hoax.

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    Psioncy

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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:22 am

    The Great Splendini wrote:>> You need universal acceleration in FE model to make the oceans stick.

    No.

    The earth is flat, stationary, and fixed.

    You don't need anything.

    Rivers flow downhill. That's about it.


    Most of the FE models have a flat earth accelerating upward at the rate of what I would call gravity. This is in their "standard model." And centrifugal/centripetal force is certainly a real phenomena that you can easily observe by spinning around buckets of water and such.

    Some FEers go with the "density gravitation," which is theoretically weak and is simply saying that density determines what goes up or down. However, there is still a downward attraction that relates to mass.


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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:25 am

    You're right.  Gravity is a huge mystery in physics. We can observe its properties but there's no solid explanation in any theory.

    Newton is the one who figured out it's rules and those correctly predicted the orbits of the planets.  Newtons stuff works really well for that and points to a round earth model.

    But really all we really know is that "stuff go down."

    People talk about Newton discovering gravity and I'm always like, "yeah cuz before Newton came along people would drop objects and not know if it would fly up, sideways, down or what.  There was just shit flying around everywhere until he "discovered" this for us." Rolling Eyes


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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  The Great Splendini on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:33 am

    Most of the FE models have a flat earth accelerating upward at the rate of what I would call gravity. This is in their "standard model." And centrifugal/centripetal force is certainly a real phenomena that you can easily observe by spinning around buckets of water and such.

    Some FEers go with the "density gravitation," which is theoretically weak and is simply saying that density determines what goes up or down. However, there is still a downward attraction that relates to mass.

    accelerating upward? I don't know what you're talking about.

    my understanding is that the earth is flat, stationary, fixed, not moving.

    i never heard of density gravitation either. it sounds like something that is deliberately trying to confuse people.

    not all "flat earth" stuff out there is valid. there's a lot of assholes trying to make a buck or maybe even govt agents putting out bullshit or a bunch of idiots putting out garbage.

    if the earth is flat, fixed, and motionless, density is what determines what stays on the ground.

    calling it "density gravitation" just seems stupid and confusing.

    gravity is a fake theory to explain why, when ALLEGEDLY the earth is spinning, we don't go flying off of it. but the earth isn't spinning.

    centrifual force can be CREATED. but it doesn't apply to the earth since the earth is not spinning. we are not held in place by a centrifugal force. we are held in place because we are heavier than air.

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    Psioncy

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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:44 am

    Ok, density gravitation was a poor turn of phrase. What I meant is what you're talking about.

    However, even under that, things with sufficient density/mass "go down." They no go up.

    Unless you throw them, exert a kinetic force on them. Birds can overcome it with their wings, and without their wings they would fall to the ground. If you need a force to go upward, that means there is one pulling you downward.

    The Universal Acceleration thing is what I think most FEers subscribe to. I dunno I haven't checked their stuff in while but i might look it up for you later. I *think* it was called that.

    It's basically saying the the disc of the flat earth (along with the sheol and the dome and the rest of it ) is forever accelerating upward and that's why we stick to it.


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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:48 am

    Magnetism can attract or repel, but what f-s up everyone on gravity is how one-directional it is.

    Gravity is the whole center of the rift between my school and the boingers.  They built a universe entirely built on gravity, and filled it with "dark" stuff to make the math work out.

    Except that electromagnetism is gazillions of time stronger than gravity, aligns the Sun, Earth, Solar System, Galaxy, all it on ecliptic planes.  It completely shapes the universe, but Einstein replaced the Aether with space time and took electromagnetism OUT OF THE UNIVERSE.  And that's the problem, it *can't* work without it.  Everything is electromagnetism, from heat to chemical reactions to the structure of matter itself.  Thought is electromagnetic. So is light. It's all positive and negative charges interacting in fields.


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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  The Great Splendini on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:56 am

    i don't believe there's a "dome".

    there's no proof for it besides bible quotes.

    i am not discussing this anymore.

    you should go on physics forums maybe.

    but flat earth isn't all about physics.

    i mean, most of the proofs do not necessitate complex physics.

    they are mostly common observations, like this one:

    21) If the Earth were truly constantly spinning Eastwards at over 1000mph, helicopters and hot-air balloons should be able to simply hover over the surface of the Earth and wait for their destinations to come to them!
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    Psioncy

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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:25 am

    Right and that doesn't happen because objects held to a point on the earth by gravity are spinning with it.  So if you fire a rifle, the bullet accelerates with the force of the blast plus the spin of the earth.  The coriolis effect however does effect bullets as hundreds of youtube gun enthusiasts can demonstrate for you.

    Quite a lot of flat earthers are also creationsist/christians.  They say this makes them feel closer to God, and it matches the Bible better.

    It's a very finite universe.  The Boing is also finite and also puts us at the center since galaxies are expanding out away from us at greater accelerations by function of their distant according to their (wrong theory).  The light from those galaxies is losing energy and redshifting because it's interacting with matter, space plasma, along its entire journey.  Just like light slows down in our atmosphere and dies out completely in the ocean depths.

    My EU theory does not put us a the center of the universe, however, I don't think it's any kind of insult to God, because mine is the only theory which allows for an infinite universe, and this is even considered probable within it, there's just no way to ascertain that from observation.  So I'm really the one giving God the most credit here.  Also my theory is right.   That's a really key, important aspect of it.  geek

    You don't have to keep arguing this stuff with me if you don't want to, just stop.  I don't because I love talking cosmology.  It's like my all time favorite topic.

    Oh, that reminds me, here it is from the FE Wiki.  I actually got the name of the theory right.

    http://theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Gravity



    'Universal Acceleration' is a theory of gravity within the Flat Earth Model. The traditional theory of gravity (e.g. Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation, General Theory of Relativity, etc) is incompatible with the Flat Earth Model because it requires a large, spherical mass pulling objects uniformly toward its center.

    Rather than a downward pull due to the presence of mass, the theory of Universal Acceleration asserts that the roughly disk-shaped Earth is accelerating 'upward' at a constant rate of 1g (9.8m/sec^2).

    From what I can tell from my readings, this is the prevailing gravitation theory in the FE movement, however there is a divergent, smaller group in your camp with the density explanation.


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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  The Great Splendini on Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:33 am

    I'm not an expert on the topic and I'm not into physics that much.

    Physics is over my head.

    So you should go on other forums to keep talking about this shit.

    From a conspiracy point of view, it might be one of the biggest conspiracies of all time.

    The Earth was flat if you went too far you would fall off
    Now the Earth is round
    If the shape change again everybody woulda start laugh
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    That he chooses to speak of

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    The Great Splendini

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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  The Great Splendini on Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:44 am

    >> So if you fire a rifle, the bullet accelerates with the force of the blast plus the spin of the earth.

    So if you fire a rifle in the direction the earth is spinning vs the opposite direction, the bullet should travel at different speeds.

    Similarly, flights in one direction would be much faster than in the opposite direction.

    Flights definitely aren't.

    For bullets, I'm guessing they aren't either. Try it out and let me know!

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    Psioncy

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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:44 am

    It's not over your head, sheesh. There's just stuff you haven't learned about it yet.

    You have a lot of the FE arguments down.

    I study this stuff all the time, that's all. And believe me, when I'm listening to Dollard dude, 90% is going right over my head. With Einsteinian and quantum myscticism it's not, because I am good recognizing sophistry.

    Like I keep saying, your FE is a much better working model than theirs in terms of explanatory power.


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    Psioncy

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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:49 am

    The Great Splendini wrote:>> So if you fire a rifle, the bullet accelerates with the force of the blast plus the spin of the earth.

    So if you fire a rifle in the direction the earth is spinning vs the opposite direction, the bullet should travel at different speeds.

    Similarly, flights in one direction would be much faster than in the opposite direction.

    Flights definitely aren't.

    For bullets, I'm guessing they aren't either. Try it out and let me know!


    They do.  It's called the coriolis effect (the bullets).  It's highest at the equator because that's where the earth is spinning the fastest.  Just because something is off the ground does not mean gravity is not acting on it.  It is.  Gravity is keeping the moon in the orbit.

    This is also what I was talking about the other day with the Michealson-Morley experiment, which foudn that the rotation of the earth was effecting the speed of light beams, proving the Aether.


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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  The Great Splendini on Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:52 am

    You read somewhere that they do.

    Or you are applying some theory that you believe to try to convince me that they do.

    Why don't you try the experiment for yourself?

    Then you will know if it's true or not.

    You are way too theoretical, and that is your downfall.

    Also, flights are no different. Flying from US to Europe is the same as flying from Europe to US. That's because the Earth is not spinning.

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    Psioncy

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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:17 am

    I get that FE does not recognize Newton's correlation between mass and gravity.  In my view this is proven, but like I said before about gravity and all that.  Now I get that you don't believe gravity is acting radially from a center of mass, but that is the mechanics of what I'm talking about.  It's no harder to accepting than density with no force or universal acceleration, I feel.

    So under THOSE mechanics, which is what is being... we'll say "asserted," gravity is pulling downward radially, even stuff in the air.  The spin of the earth has little to do with the plane because it took off the spinning earth and went in a certain direction.  It's the same with a bullet or a missile or an arrow.  There are TWO vectors of force acting on it, one forward from the thrust and one downward from gravity.  The movement of the Earth is almost a null consideration because it cancels out.  The plane took off from a moving earth and moving over that same moving earth and is still gravitationally bound to it.  

    In your mind, and many FEers, that plane suddenly breaks the bond of gravity the moment it enters the air.  It doesn't.  It's still bound over the same point of earth while it's sits on the runway.  It wouldn't matter if the plane was flying or we used a car or a train here on the ground.  Before it exerts a forward thrust it is still, but is still being pulled down by the force of gravity.  After the thrust another vector is added horizontally and it moves in that direction.  It does not slip free of its relative position to the Earth.

    And I know I just said relative there, but this is actually the starting point that is true before relativity takes things into whackadoo land.

    Ok, it's the same as if you are on a train and toss a ball straight up.  It comes back down to your hand even though the train is hauling ass down the track.  Why?  Because when you tossed it up it was already moving at the same speed you were, thus the velocity of that vector is nullified.

    Relativity takes this to the next level and says that all inertial frames are independent of each other and that's where it loses the plot.  But insofar as what I'm saying now, that's all true and proven.


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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:23 am

    There are FEers who want to know why a plane isn't constantly adjusting for the curvature, and it's because they are rejecting the radial mechanic of planetary gravitation.  The Earth's center of mass is down at the center, which we'll call Hell, and Hell is trying to pull everyone and everything into itself (on the surface *and* above the surface) from every single radial direction at the same time.


    Last edited by Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  The Great Splendini on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:25 am

    Sorry, again you're making the same mistake.

    You don't listen when people talk.

    I told you I don't know much about physics, nor do I wish to continue talking about physics.

    I also told you that complicated physics is not necessarily needed to talk about many of the flat earth points. Very often, flat earth involves common sense.

    And one of the things about flat earth is that it is simple experiments that can easily be done by people to test it.

    I also told you that you are too theoretical. You haven't actually tested anything. You just have a bunch of theories in your head.

    Maybe you need to unbrainwash yourself.

    The conversation is over.

    In fact, I'm taking a break from the forum because I'm tired of getting dragged into a bunch of conversations that I don't want to be a part of.

    P.S. A forum with 2 people doesn't really work very well.




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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  The Great Splendini on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:29 am

    >> There are FEers who want to know why a plane isn't constantly adjusting for the curvature

    I don't know what youre talking about and what FE sites you're on.

    There is no curvature.

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    Psioncy

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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:29 am

    Well I tried to simplify it more on the last post cuz I realized I did too complexicating before.

    The Flat Earthers are actually applying gravitation as it would with their Universal Acceleration, but the mechanic being used is a radial one, which they discount when they make their arguments. I think it's intectually dishonest to argue another theory's mechanics without using its mechanics. Universal Acceleration would have everything going straight down on a flat plane, but the Earth wouldn't be spinning in the first place cuz it wouldn't be a ball. Rolling Eyes



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    Re: Flat Earth

    Post  Psioncy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:34 am

    The Great Splendini wrote:

    There is no curvature.


    There you go, that's a good FEer. Drop the mike right there bro.

    With FE it's a lot of "what you see with your own eyes is what you get and anything you don't is A GIANT CONSPIRACY!"

    With Relativity and Boing and quantum mysticism it's a lot of "what you see doesn't matter, we've made up a bunch of invisible shit for you to believe in."

    With EU it's a more rational, middle ground. We also reject a gravity driven universe but for far different reasons.


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